Time and Us

Weird failure

Posted in Kabir's poetry by anu on December 26, 2008

To ones who’ve heard the flute!

To a radiant friend who decided to go alone into the dark!

To ones who love words and the sound of words!

To my guests!

Wishing you all the face of satisfied desire!

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13 comments

13 Responses

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  1. Crazyfinger said, on December 26, 2008 at 2:42 am

    Listened to that recitation and then went on to watch these…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmFewW7P5jE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRq5Gy98G9o

    Sigh…!

    Crazyfinger

  2. anu said, on December 26, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    Those are lovely songs, Kabir makes us wonder about the divine and human, isn’t it? It is at once easy and difficult to separate the two in his verses.

    On this blog though we ponder about the current state of the marginalized, we do move back and forth in time looking for answers. Some contemporary and medieval writings helped moderate my reactions to the present mess we find ourselves in. Listening to Kabir’s poems, I was reminded of the ones I learned as a school girl and that makes me wonder, how can Indian people whose histories are intertwined with the thinking’s of Kabir and others become so incapable of thinking………
    And we are also a people who derive so much pleasure in simple beautiful lyrics, and then we transform into demons wanting war :-(

  3. Prabin said, on December 27, 2008 at 3:23 am

    Amazing !

    (btw, did he tell Kabir was one of the ancestors of Rumi?)

  4. Crazyfinger said, on December 27, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    how can Indian people whose histories are intertwined with the thinking’s of Kabir and others become so incapable of thinking…

    I think these two are different things, don’t you think? Feelings and the poetic thinking that expresses these feelings seem to have no primary influence on the political actions. Political action is what is required to improve the current state of marginalized. As long as this primary force of political action is not set in motion, all secondary influences such as Kabir’s thinking and such are just like a brownian motion. A self-centered, self-centric, “closed,” meaning-meta-meaning etc. etc., sharing system that simply feeds on itself thinking it serves a larger purpose. Examples of this secondary brownian movements are many: technologists talking among themselves, “english-speaking” Indian bloggers marketing their ideas to themselves, or to use a much more pressing example, the current financial industry. Yes I am being cynical but what the hey, I see a powder charge ready to explode but the party is still on…! What is the way out? Personal stories and a strong, mature, mature medium of communication that is not so narcissistic. This blog ought to go in that direction next year, is my wish…! : – )

    P.S. Obviously the songs in my first comment have nothing to do with Kabir. Fyi.

    Regards, Crazyfinger

  5. anu said, on December 27, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    Crazyfinger,
    [Feelings and the poetic thinking that expresses these feelings seem to have no primary influence on the political actions.
    Political action is what is required to improve the current state of marginalized. As long as this primary force of political action is not set in motion.]

    If politics is not influenced by tolerance (expressed in poetic form or otherwise), its action on the marginalized is unacceptable, in fact, it makes the existing situation worse. Rethinking along the lines of Kabir’s teaching seems like a nice place to work from. First he demolishes any hierarchy, notions of superior beings, notions of a special God, puts the the individual in charge of his own actions. Driven by thinking and experiencing life in meaningful ways. Everything else is brownian movement, positive to positive hits. Starting with a primary force that is devoid of thoughts, feelings and humaneness leads to a pyramiding of negative forces that results in the scenarios you paint in the later part of your comment.

    I completely agree with you that personal stories are the way to go for marginalized expression, though drawing the line between telling personal stories and narcissism is a tough one, don’t you think?
    Even if one is primed to receive a sad little story of the marginalized individual.

    [>>Listened to that recitation and then went on to watch these…]

    don’t you think that was a positive Brownian movement (for his discussion I use positive and negative)? It need not have anything to do with Kabir’s but the forward momentum that led to listening to songs that are beautiful and obviously holds a lot of meaning to you is a quick example of having the mind in thinking, experiencing mode. :-)

  6. anu said, on December 27, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    [Prabin] Welcome to this blog!

    yes, a slip I guess.

  7. Prabin said, on December 29, 2008 at 6:12 am

    @anu
    thanks..Everyone is thinking (if u didnt say that sarcastically). The problem is, it’s difficult to be critical of a social/political system which serves your interest so well. Our thoughts usually justify it, or address the issues which threaten our way of life. You ‘ll notice, education/ ability to think does not necessarily make us wise.We use it to justify our ignorance/intolerance/discrimination…

    [em]I think these two are different things, don’t you think? Feelings and the poetic thinking that expresses these feelings seem to have no primary influence on the political actions[em]

    You can’t say that about Dalit pather movement, or Feminism..

    And it wont be correct to imply Kabir’s poetic expression didnt follow political course. Guru Nanak is said to have personally met and influenced by Kabir (Adi granth has many of Kabir’s verses). Sikhism is as much a socio-political movement as its a faith. What followed could be debatable though..

  8. anu said, on December 29, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    Hey Prabin,

    I have been told many times by other authors on this blog not leave thoughts dangling in the form of dots :-) I forget, and sometimes just very slow. I meant incapable of thinking in ways that are tolerant of others situations and so on.

    I have been looking for some philosophers thoughts, that may address the dalit world entirely; hindus, christian and muslim dalits, as well as along the socio-economic spectrum, the members of so called creamy layer to the ones in remote jungles, and feel very dissatisfied. A philosophy that would easily translate to the dalit world, a school of thought such as the one Kabir presents seems ideal. Having the power to address the entire spectrum of dalits without running into the inherent differences of such a diverse community, held together by a common history of oppression and little else.

    Despite my defense, CF’s comment gave me a jolt, reminding me that philosophy has to be followed with the political will to act. In an earlier discussion when I was reacting to political inaction, CF has pointed the discussion towards philosophy, if I remember right, it was the Old testament then, and in a recent post on his blog he was looking at the nature of a man who disturbs, based on article drawing from New testament. So this goes back and forth. Then your comment about Kabir’s influence on Sikhism, alerts me, that I should not be naive enough to assume a tolerant philosophy, powered by political will and action, will lead to improving the lives of the marginalized, in fact, it may go in unwanted directions too.

    About poetry and Dalit panther movement, of which I’ve read a little bit, I found poetry and the movement addressing dalits of a small region. The poems are filled with very very region-specific topics, not always possible to encompass the larger world of the dalits with its message. But I have my collection of Marathi dalit poems that I absolutely treasure, because I understand some of the nuances in them, having stayed in Maharashtra for a period. For the ones who did not, those nuances will be simply be lost, even if translated.

    I appreciate both, CF and your succinct comments, about my current dreaming session :-)

  9. Crazyfinger said, on December 29, 2008 at 7:20 pm

    Anu –

    You say – “Having the power to address the entire spectrum of dalits without running into the inherent differences of such a diverse community, held together by a common history of oppression and little else.”

    I think you will eventually discover that your wish for a holistic perspective that can influence “the entire spectrum of dalits,” has already come true if we look at the current state of dalit life which already is being insufficiently understood by ignoring, “the inherent differences of such a diverse community.”

    To wish for such a philosophy that addresses the entire spectrum, “held together by a common history of oppression and little else.” is insane. This is a trap. Unless you tell me that dalits have no identity other than just oppressed people, this call to unite under the corrosive embrace of an oppressive blanket is regression, not progress.

    Instead I’d say to get out from that wholesome comfort of an oppressive hand is to show dalits as individual, distinct, diverse human beings who have their own culture, their own stories, wishes, dreams, and yes oppression too….

    One word: translation. Three words: sense of urency.

    Regards, Crazyfinger

  10. anu said, on December 29, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    CF, you misread my statement. I am not for a minute asking for the differences to be ignored. In fact everybody follows their own ideologies, hindus, muslims, dalit christians in alll the different languages the dalit speaks in , I very emphatically stress on pride on our culture and indivdual history. But it has been easy to destroy any effort for them to come together to fight the common enemy of oppression, because divisive forces capitalize on the inherent differences. And lack of education and economic resources prevents the dalit from asserting himself against these forces.

    A common philosophy to me is very simple: A poem, that every dalit who in his memory has member of his community killed, mutilated, raped, house burnt and humiliated on a daily basis can relate to.

    A poem that does not lose its intensity, message, experience or lyrical power when translated into each and every language that the dalit speaks in.

    Gaddar’s songs has power to inspire Telugu dalits.
    Marathi poetry has the power to inspire Marathi dalits.
    Not the dalit from Gujurat sitting right next him on a railway platform.

    Dalit hindu takes comfort in sanskritized tradition.
    Dalit muslim in being able to offer prayers with rest of his community.

    In short, a song, a poem , philosophy, a name that rings true, that touches the heart of every dalit, that inspires his brain to question, calls on his phenomenal capabilities of survival to demand better from life. Is what I seek.

    Probably every dalit does indeed know Ambedkar’s name and takes pride in him. How many of them know what he was actually saying? They have been reduced to chanting his name and demanding its inclusion in pamphlets. Because his message did not get through, I do not know.

    I will take a breadth and ask you something else? The present situation arising out Mumbai events are really bothering all of us, and bloggers are taking it out in various ways. And I switched of from those topics briefly, and since I am novice in dalit literature, thought reading Ambedkar at this late stage would still be helpful, I am still plowing through his writings on caste, BUT what i found and have been hooked onto is his work entitled, guess what? Pakistan. Please, Please click on this link and see what he has to say.

    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/index.html

    It is amazing. You can see his scholarship in the index itself.
    It is an amazing document.

    The rest of what you say about individual, distinct, diverse human beings. True, very true.

    “Sense of urgency”. Tell me that, again.

  11. Crazyfinger said, on December 29, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    Anu,

    Thanks for the link. I browsed it and came back, bookmarked it, will read it thoroughly later on.

    There is a perception that is prevalent among non-experts, that the writings of Indian “independence figures” are somehow less reliable, are shrill, resonate only within framework of “indian independence movement,” are dense, hard to read, harder even to relate to, and in all cases evoke first reactions such as: all these dalit questions, gosh…gives me headache…it’s so boring…! I see very often a natural reaction among most indians is to look to the west, and yes even among indian blogosphere dwellers. Somehow talking about Martin Luther King, black/white thing is more emotionally satisfying than to confront dalit oppression. And even those who claim to have read Ambedkar never take the time to write an insigtful post about what he may have written about a specific topic. Of course his writings are in english language so we can do our own reading.

    The point is, original texts such as of Ambedkar, need the courier service of current-day analytical minds to dust up the perceived dull-ness from these texts, mediate these texts through one’s own personal insights / experiences so these texts stay current. I say this because I bet you most everything that we ever talk about on dalit issues has already been thought through quite incisively by Ambedkar. So why not dig in, get to the bottom of what has already been analyzed, documented and pick up on a small set of unresolved “big ideas,” and stay focussed? Sounds to me like a great project for a group blog. Why not have 3-4 people blog exclusively around Ambedkar’s writings, but deal with contemporary dalit issues? At least then we can exercise that elusive forward movement? :-)

    Regards, Crazyfinger

  12. nabina said, on December 30, 2008 at 7:44 am

    thanks for posting this… great one! Happy New Year to you and family… our love to the little guy! See you soon in Ithaca.

  13. anu said, on December 30, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    Thanks Nabina! A Happy New Year to you and family.

    CF, if you are reading this, I want to pick on one of your statements “Indian bloggers marketing their ideas to themselves” it is not always so, I draw your attention to N’s 70 plus father’s blogpost here:

    http://pbdasmailing.blogspot.com/2008/12/in-shadow-of-famine.html

    I feel so lucky to get a glimpse of 1940’s India with the gripping visuals he paints.

    Blogging is more than marketing and narcissistic storing of memories, it is already emerging as a powerful educational tool in the western hemisphere. We have to put our jaded opinions or immediate irritations aside, if we want to be right up there with the rest of world while using and developing this medium. Will write a post on this next year and hopefully continue talking about it then and I really like your suggestions in the last comment, will think about it and get back.


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